#flayed hopper theory

[greenfiend]

For those still in doubt that Will flayed/influenced Hopper in ST3…

So when someone flays another basically what happens is, as Mike states they “[take] over their mind” and “basically become him”.

Now, it’s very interesting how in ST3 we see Hopper act childish- but exclusively in ST3. The very same season Will desperately holds onto his childhood.

It’s suspiciously very meta for him to say lines like this. It’s intentional. The writers didn’t just forget how to write Hopper. We are supposed to notice this abrupt shift in his persona and overall demeanour.

As Will says, he likes to hide. Interestingly enough Will and him share that in common. Note the “only used me when he needed me”. Same is true for Will using Hopper. Hopper still has moments where he is his “normal” self.

Whenever Hopper is “serious”, it’s really him. Whenever he’s emotional and kid-like, he’s under Will’s influence.

The Clues

So, let’s start by going over some of the major clues, shall we?

Him saying this to a Byers of course. Interesting writing choice.

The original script tells us that Will wears colourful clothes. That’s his style and he stands out because of it. Now it seems to be Hopper’s style all of a sudden too. It’s even noted by officer Powell here that it’s surprising to see Hopper dress this way.

Play these transition scenes. The first one has Lucas asking Will for permission to take a shower, then we are shown Hopper showering. I suppose Will granted Hopper said permission. Then of course we have El asking “how can you tell when someone’s a host?” afterwards the first person we see is Hopper himself. A perfect example of a host. They answered her question!

We are often shown Hopper acting childish. Look at how he’s holding his pillow! We never saw him doing this in seasons prior. Then we have Murray outright calling him a “manbaby” and “children”.

When “Hopper” orders an alcoholic beverage he struggles with the pronunciation. Reminiscent of a young person attempting (but failing) to appear older and more mature.

We even are shown him being fed lines that came from a Byers.

Now for the major clue. Why oh why did they show Will while Mike explained that Hopper threatened him? Not just Will, but Will moving pieces on a board. He’s essentially controlling things! Bending to his will, if you will. I mean it makes sense. We know Will was very jealous of Mike and El and complained about them! Just like Hopper, he wants them to break up. Perhaps even more than Hopper actually does.

Then we have Mike referring to him as crazy! That’s their special word, so naturally “Hopper”/Will does not take this well. Look at his face! He looks betrayed.

The References

It’s extremely subtle, but we have another Byler/Jopper parallel here. Earlier in 3x01, we see Joyce holding Hopper’s left hand, very reminiscent of Mike holding Will’s right hand last season. Then we have Hopper communicating in Morse Code as he and Mike fight to lock/unlock the car door several times. Notice how we have a shot of his left hand doing the locking of the door? Same one Joyce held. I’ve tried to work out what he’s communicating but I’m falling short. If anyone wants to take a stab at it please let me know your findings!

Then we have the Back to the Future references. Again very subtle, but there nonetheless. As we know, Will is compared to Marty Mcfly a fair bit, ever since his very first appearance!

Do you recall the plot of Back to the Future? Marty travels to the past, accidentally changes some things, then has to bring his parents back together! Will does the same thing… through Hopper!

And just like Marty… things get a tad bit awkward…

Now keep in mind… these scenes all occur within the same episode. While trying to set up his mother and Hopper together through “flaying” Hopper, Will accidentally gets his mom interested in him (as Hopper). That is why he refers to Murray as “Freud” aka the Psychologist who created the theory of “the Oedipus Complex”. This is also why Robin drops that line about of the movie.

So… How?

If you recall back in ST2, Hopper is spat on by something and was trapped in the UD. Will is able to sense him and thus is connected to him. Hopper is a part of Will’s hive mind. I also believe they may be biologically father and son… but that’s for another post.

The Implications of All of This…

So what does this mean? I’m not fully sure, but it seems like Will has some abilities here. I have no idea if it’s future Will manipulating things, or present Will and I’m not so sure how aware he is of all of this.

But in regards to Mike… here are some funny implications…

ST3 shows us a Mike with a peculiar fascination with bears. Bears seem to be associated with Will and “bear” has a specific other definition…

Now the icing on the cake with this is the fact that Mike has made comments regarding Hopper’s weight multiple times! So, he’s well aware of Hopper’s “bear” status. Mike shows interest in bears because he’s interested in Will. Will essentially is a “bear” while he is puppeteering Hopper.

It’s also nice to know that Will actually did get that hug he yearned for from Mike. We just didn’t realize it. Mike and “Hopper” hugged a tad longer than normal too while Will was facing them of course.

To conclude, I know this theory sounds so silly and I sound insane, but I swear to you… this is real. I may be wrong about some aspects of this but I know Will influenced Hopper in some way. Remember though, it’s not a constant thing. Will only “used him when he needed to”. Will experienced being flayed in ST2, then he became the “flayer” in ST3.

If you have any questions or comments about this theory feel free to send me an ask! These things are fun to think and talk about.

[cypherheartnokey]

@greenfiend this reminded of your flayed Hopper theory!

What if Will “changed something” here? We’ve talked about how it’s possible that Will or someone manipulated Mike into saying “I love her” about El.

It may also refer to other changes in the timeline that might be occurring simultaneously

LMAO CAUGHT RED HANDED

THEY PUT THE SAME REACTION CLIP IN TWICE IN THE "I LOVE HER" SCENE

[shinpikurage]

You know, the ending of season 3 is so telling to me

We have Mike smiling because he and Will are talking again, and being happy that Will won't replace him in California (Like he replaced Will with El)

And the next moment, Mike denying that he loves El, telling her it was nothing, and the *kiss*, open eyes, no reciprocation. After, Mike doesn't look surprised or flustered in a good way, he looks confused, scared

For me, it feels like he had a realization, that he might not love El like he previously thought he did, he doesn't love him the way he should, the way she wants him too

And then Hoppers letter? Yeah he's talking about how much he misses his daughter, but it also feels like Wills feelings about Mike

Playing board games until it's late, Will and Mike haven't done that in months because he's busy with El

Eating junk food, typical friend stuff that Will doesn't get to do anymore

And that Hopper understands, because El is growing, maturing, but he misses her. Also goes back to how Will feels, he feels like everyone is maturing and he's being left behind because they are busy with their girlfriends, something he will never go through (plus him wanting to be a kid because that was taken away from him from his father, the UD and the Mind Flayer)

For me, this Hopper-Will/Eleven-Mike parallel is even more cool if we believe in the "Will is controlling Hopper" theory

Anyways, Season 3 was the season Will realized he would be left behind because of his trauma and Queerness, and the one Mike realized he might not love his girlfriend after all

[0aurelion-sol0]

(So before we start with this theory & new post of mine for a long time since my semi-hiatus, I want to repeat that I do not want any new informations about season 5 or anything related to it whether true or not, same for any leaks, set photos whether true not. I ESPECIALLY DO NOT WANT THOSE!!!!! or interviews that are the slightest bit too revealing UNLESS I haven't looked at it myself and even then, easy on any of these. I know something minor about this season & have seen two things about it but that's it, nothing more.

These theories & analyses might be proven wrong or false already or in the future but I don't care, I do this for fun & as a way to explore different possibilities about the story that can be interesting or could have been at least. I hope everyone understands this & will not be a party pooper towards me just to have a "GOTCHA!!!" moment... With that said, let's get into it, shall we ?)

_________________________________________

The Thessalhydra:

Back To The Future &... The Beginning.

_________________________________________

For this first post, I wanted to go back to season 1 as I found it was fitting to explore one of the earliest major fandom theories of Stranger Things since it's final season is on it's way.

"The Thessalhydra as the final threat from the Upside Down."

And while at first everyone at the end of Season 1 thought, obviously, that this creature would be the next threat in it's second season, the Mind Flayer poked it's head and said "not yet!", "I need to experiment with my minions first!" with a Vecna also slowly planning his own armageddon as well. And as much as I don't like him (& his season... 😒), he's here and he proves to be useful from time to time when it comes to theories or analyses because he still part of the show & can help up in terms of parallels, themes & plot.

But now, let's remember the last episode of season 1! The boys playing their new campaign about the Thessalhydra taking a similar turn to the one they did at the beginning of the first season (*wink wink*) & this time Will does a 14 (*wink wink*) & kills the Thessalhydra with a fireball. (*wink wink*)

Now if this wasn't a tv show with multiple seasons, I would tell you that the boys obviously staged the whole thing for Will to win so that he can be happy and because they're all very nice friends & also not repeat the same game at risk of making him vanish again especially if the monster this time is the size of the Empire State Building, (sorry with the luck these characters have, I simply can't believe they can have a happy ending such as this one. WILL HAD UD SLUGS INSIDE HIS BODY, WTF GUYS???!!!) but this is a tv show with multiple seasons. And now, it has definitely become foreshadowing for what's to come.

Especially since in it's fourth season now, we basically have Nancy having an apocalyptic vision of Hawkins with a large creature which is describe by having a "gaping mouth".

And if you look at her face here, she definitely did not find that thing beautiful in the slightest, though she is probably more terrified about the fact that she saw most of her family dead. 🤭

But would you look at that ?! What creature in ST fits that description ? Quite a lot actually but obviously you know which one I'm talking about, yes The Thessalhydra! And oh my god, look at what I've found on the Forgotten Realms Wiki:

"Thessalhydras were hideous and terrifying creatures. They had a large, reptilian body with a long tail, 18 feet (5.5 meters) in length, which ended in a pair of large, sharp pincers. It had no head, instead eight hydra-like heads, each about 6 feet (1.8 meters) in length, surrounded a gaping mouth filled with teeth and acidic saliva."

Well well, after that, it's difficult to argue what else could that large creature be!

End of theory! Bye guys! Thank you for reading!

...

Except I also can do that... 😅 Because I have reason to believe that this future Thessalhydra is a creature we have seen before. One whose campaign mirrors another campaign from the same season.

Yes. I have reasons to believe that the Thessalhydra and The Demogorgon from Season 1 are one and the same.

Do you remember this ?

Of you course you remember this, what a stupid question. It's part of a series of trauma that affected us deeply as a fandom, for different reasons (at least for me) but it proves to be an even more important parallel than we originally thought.

I don't need to tell you about the thematic importance of the parallel or what it means for the characters, we've all already gone through that already, I am more interested in it's significance for the plot.

So El kills The Demogorgon & Henry the same way. By disintegrating them. But that action doesn't seem to end the same way for the both of them & El herself.

What is interesting is that the three of them dissapear in some form, Henry into an Upside Down gate but ends up falling forever through the Hellscape (a different dimension than Dimension X/The Upside Down though likely connected, the same way that Dimension X & The Upside Down probably are the same thing but it's not fully confirmed yet.) before ending into Dimension X/The Upside Down in some way. And we all know what happens from here on out, at least what we know of it since Season 4.

I have a theory for why he ended up there, what is the nature of that place and did not simply disintegrate like The Demogorgon who I also do not think simply disintegrated but we will not go fully through that in this post.

El though ends up in the Upside Down after being taken by the disintegrated part of the Demogorgon or by disintetrating herself (though it didn't really seem that way to me) which I think is probably because the Demogorgon used it's powers on her since he could open gates or send anyone to the UD in season 1. (We will also get into that but not in this post, same for why he was so different in Season 1, both physically and in the way he behaved.)

But the Demogorgon, from what we saw simply disintegrated and we never heard or saw any significant clue of it's existence again. Which again leads me to believe, if we follow the logic of what happened to Henry & to El in some way, it is still alive, somewhere.

And I believe personally that it is in the Hellscape right now, and in the same way that Henry got electrocuted while free falling in that place which marked the start of it's transformation as Vecna, I think the same is happening to The Demogorgon and is slowly being transformed into the Thessalhydra.

I think that El when she disintegrate something, she sends them into the Hellscape which is connected to Dimension X/The Upside Down as some sort of passage for someone who didn't enter via a gate the "original" or "right" way per say. Because being launched into Dimension X/The Upside Down in a state or in a way such as this one could be fatal so it's some sort of transition in a way.

And while Henry technically went through a gate, he was disintegrated before it's opening & that gate couldn't last more than a few seconds which I think is a result of the barrier between the worlds not being thin enough. Plus I think El gave way more strength into Henry than she did the Demogorgon with her powers which in turn also opened a gate behind him.

So as a result, he went into the Hellscape as some sort of "safer" transition between the two dimensions since as we know, and I hope, no gate before that has been opened in Hawkins before.

And as for the Demogorgon, again I think it's a point of it fighting back against El & using it's own powers against her plus again El didn't seem to launch the same type of strength of her power as she did onto Henry since she was standing much closer to the Demogorgon than she did Henry while also using an important memory of hers to defeat him.

Now as to why we haven't seen that Demogorgon or Thessalhydra in ST again, I think it's because the Hellscape was connected to the original version of The Upside Down, Dimension X in a way that it's not anymore with The Upside Down because what happened November 6th, 1983 changed more than just the environment but also the workings of those dimensions since the barriers between the dimensions are now thinner.

So I see 3 possibilities for the Demogorgon, to me it is still free falling through the Hellscape being slowly turned into the Thessalhydra or somehow ended up in Dimension X instead which is still connected to The Upside Down but is seperate it's own plane in some way since The Mind Flayer still come from there or is in a version of The Upside Down that is still Dimension X outside of UD Hawkins.

But still, some things are still up for speculation for how exactly it all works out in the end.

As I said at the beginning of the post, you take Nancy's description and apply to other creatures in ST like the Meat Flayer/Spider Monster (whatever you wanna call it) of Season 3, a gaping mouth with multiple hydra-like heads who in a way also gets defeated by fireballs via Lucas and it's fireworks which we see Will throw with him but the Demogorgon also fits that description with it's own gaping mouth blooming like a flower whose petals could look like different mouths coming from it.

And in a way, it would be ironic for The Demorgorn from season 1 to be The Thessalhydra because if we follow the boys' campaign, the very thing that took Will back then, that he couldn't defeat would also be the same thing he will defeat in it's final season as some sort of karmic consequence for The Demogorgon & The UD as a whole but also as a way to tie it's final season with it's first season in a more concrete way.

It started with Will and it will end with Will.

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

How do you feel about the El dying theories coming out, especially because of the Mike and Hopper scene leaks we’ve been seeing? I’m trying to stay optimistic but it’s really not looking good for her :/

I think it'd be incredibly bleak. She's gone through it her entire life, and she deserves some happiness. I know life doesn't always go that way, but this isn't real life. It's a story.

Besides, I feel like if El died then Hopper would look just as upset as Mike, if not more so. The guy lost one daughter already. Losing another one would be devastating to him.

I think the only thing going for this theory is the fact that the Duffers claimed they originally wrote El dying at the end of season 1 (before they expanded it into a multi-season series). I think they moved past that being a satisfying ending though by faking her death back then. It'd be like killing Hopper off. They already did it only to reveal he wasn't dead.

The characters I think are at real risk of dying are:

Henry (naturally) Dr. Owens (if he's even in this season) Murray Every member of the Wheeler family besides Mike (especially if that fan theory of them being related to the Creels ends up true)

I think the vast majority of people on that memorial will be everyone who died to the supernatural elements of the story, now that the town will likely find out what happened. People like Barb, Bob, Henry's season 4 targets, and all the flayed in season 3 will finally have their stories known.

I think it's likely that Mike has this scene with Hopper because he's getting ready to leave Hawkins and is having trouble letting go of what happened. So he goes to visit the memorial to think, and then Hopper sees him there and tries to help. My big question is where is the Party as he's dealing with this? Where is his best friend (and maybe more), Will?

I think there's a lot more to this than people are thinking. It's just one little piece of a larger epilogue. For all we know, this is a quick bit of a larger montage, much like the end of season 3. We're just obsessing over it because it's the biggest piece of the ending we have.

[cloudycleric]

watching a documentary on the son(s) of sam, & it’s got me thinking about stranger things 5.

the first thing that makes me think about stranger things is the fact that hopper’s spin off novel, back when the novels were more adult or whatever, was heavily inspired by the son of sam case in new york. i can’t remember if the son of sam case was specifically mentioned or not, or if the book was about a parallel crime to son of sam but in a different universe, but there is definitely a link connecting them.

next, i’m going to talk about the cult (which was also in the spin off novel, but the stories in the novel & the real life crimes by the ‘sons of sam’ are almost identical)

i was remembering specifically that the church has been a important place in the filming of season 5 so far, & like everyone else, i’m wondering why. my theory: the citizens of hawkins, who now 1000% believe that the city is being attacked by the devil or demonic forces, have started a cult to worship whoever they believe the devil is.

the cult forming could be out of fear or pure insanity. or maybe both. it also very much goes with the satanic panic theme. (which, to be honest, though i think it’s an overused theme, it makes sense for the town of hawkins to be reacting this way).

the real life cult, called ‘the children’, claimed to be working for a higher entity, talking about how 6,000 year old dogs (demidog parallel) had been giving some of the members orders to kill.

these are the flayed from season 3, who were given specific instructions to kill & expand their army. in a way, they could be viewed as children of vecna &/or the mindflayer. also, in this scene in particular, the flayed are meeting underground in that building we first see billy get possessed.

do you wanna guess where the children met? a place they called the gutters. for some odd reason i can find 0 pictures on google of this place, but you can see it in the documentaries sons of sam & i’m sure a few others. it was also abandoned, like the building billy was killed in, graffiti everywhere with references to classic 70s cult shit.

also—all the victims of the son of sam were mainly teenagers… hmm maybe like s4?

so my official thinking is that maybe, just maybe, a cult worshipping vecna or whatnot will be a big part of s5, or that the son of sam case inspired more than just the hopper spin-off book.

[brionysea]

possessiongate is so perfect. it explains so much. mike being grabbed by that vine right after the mind flayer leaves will and as el is closing the gate... how do people not see it? it's such an in your face sequence. there is no reason for them to have included mike being grabbed by the leg, and especially in that order, if he was fine and okay right after. s2 did not get the happy ending. something had to happened

when has a sudden and dramatic shift in one's behavior and personality ever meant something not related to the supernatural? it is every single time in this show!! mike shouldn't be an exception. like.. there's a reason why his pov is gone for TWO whole seasons!! it isn't just to suddenly reveal he's gay and that's it - that's why he was weird. it's a supernatural horror coming of age at the end of day, as you said perfectly in your summary of the theory. it has to be tied into the actual horror. it has to be. that's just how an allegory works.

i wish more people talked about this theory still! :(

thank you!!! yeah honestly that whole sequence in the tunnels is so suspicious, especially because it followed dustin thinking something happened to HIM in the tunnels and then it was just... nothing. there's another one after as well where mike and lucas think the demodogs are about to jump on steve and dustin, but nothing happened, they just ran past to get to el and hopper

so they keep pushing the idea that it's dangerous to go into the tunnels, and JOYCE said that it was dangerous for the boys (mike and will) to go into the tunnels so it obviously IS dangerous because joyce byers is literally NEVER WRONG, and yet... nothing happens when mike ignores joyce's warning and eventually goes down there? no consequences? hopper almost died, will was in a lot of pain from the hive mind connection when the hawkins lab people burned the tunnels, but the rest of the kids get off scot free and nothing of importance happened and it wasn't a trap? one dustin fakeout, one mike fakeout, another dustin and steve fakeout? and NONE OF THEM had lasting consequences??????? no external or internal change occurred????

the rule of 3s is pretty important in writing. once is incident, twice is coincidence, thrice is a pattern. stranger things likes its 3s, there are so many trios, and there was the whole 'it's a three-man job, not two' thing in written dialogue. so we know the pattern of 3s is important, it's too deliberate and repetitive not to be; SOMETHING happened, SOME sort of internal change must have occurred after that suspicious sequence (since no one died so it can't be an external change) - and who's the character who changed during the s2 epilogue (pushing will to dance with a girl, pouting about it, then dancing with/kissing el while a stalker song masquerading as romance played) and was acting different as soon as s3 started? who was the character who clearly underwent some sort of internal change in between the two seasons about people being flayed/possessed, even if we don't get to intimately SEE the cause of that change, as if the problem wasn't actually solved when they got will back?

there's also the fact that even if someone, FOR SOME REASON, wanted to reduce mike to his sexuality, queerness is often depicted as not a simple thing in horror. a lot of things aren't, but with the history of queer censorship... stranger things wouldn't be the first to use their imagination to make a seemingly mundane topic like 'thinking you need to act straight until it makes your queerness go away and you can finally be normal' fit better into the genre. and that's ON TOP OF the show-specific patterns that you pointed out!

[lukiaxx]

8:15 time stamps through the show

#eightfifteengate

Eightfifteengate is a theory in stranger things fandom. Through the series, there has been a lot of focus on 8:15

Examples:

-“youre late its eight fifteen”(el to hopper in s2)

-will left the wheelers at 8:15pm in s1(“its fifteen after”, “he left littlebit after eight”)

-in s1e1, at 8:15, its literally the shot where will disappered

-there’s s2 (music) track called Eight Fifteen

and many others, there’s a lot of them, check put eightfifteengate tag for more

so, as i was rewatching the show, i took a picture for every 8:15 time stamp. i couldnt take screenshots so i took pictures of the tv, so the quality lowkey sucks, ignore that

• Season 1

s1e1: The Vanishing of Will Byers

s1e2: The Weirdo on Maple Street

s1e3: Holly, Jolly

s1e4: The Body

s1e5: The Flea and the Acrobat

s1e6: The Monster

s1e7:The Bathtub

s1e8: The Upside Down

• Season 2

s2e1: MADMAX

s2e2: Trick or Treak, Freak

s2e3: The Pollywog

s2e4: Will the Wise

s2e5: Dig Dug

s2e6: The Spy

s2e7: The Lost Sister

s2e8: The Mind Flayer

s2e9: The Gate

Season 3 s3e1: Suzie, Do You Copy?

s3e2: The Mall Rats

s3e3: The Case of the Missing Lifeguard

s3e4: The Sauna Test

s3e5: The Flayed

s3e6: E Pluribus Unum

s3e7: The Bite

s3e8: The Battle of Starcourt

this is the first episode althat also has 1:08:15

i only can import 30 photos here, so i’ll make separate post for time stamps from s4. it’ll take a while till ill watch the whole season, i give it a week or two

[dukeofdelirium]

sorry maybe my English isn't good but I'm also curious about your theory, does the manifesting mean will creates el as in she's physically real and seen by everybody, like it feels 100% real but she's actually fake? and can disappear once will accepts his creations like bastian? I'm just not sure what's meant by manifesting! its not a dream or only will experiences it, el is "fake" but thinking/feeling/existing? tbh it would explain why it's been 4 seasons and we don't know a lot about her, or she doesn't develop as much as others. I agree with others tags that it would be such interesting way for hopper to deal with grief too.

so what do you anticipate at the end of the show? that it's all revealed to be a manifestation and everyone realises el isn't properly real, and she disappears as the UD is fixed up? that's kind of similar to her s1 ending which would make sense. I like this theory in general tbh!

I think Will created her as a part of his subconscious like how he accidentally created the upside down or at least what we see of it. This would explain why Vecna wants him. If his power is creation or manifestation, he would be insanely useful. It also would explain why the upside down looks like a mirror image of Hawkins once Will was taken to it. Aka he changed the upside down to look like something familiar.

This isn’t to say that El doesn’t have a mind of her own. I think she’s real just like the upside down is real and experienced by everyone. She has a mind and will of her own, but I believe she was still brought into existence because of things Will wanted. Just like how in s3, the things in the DND campaign Will talks about then happen: the “zombies” aka the flayed townspeople, someone getting a limb bitten aka El getting bitten by the mindflayer. The fact El is romantically involved with Mike while Will is the one in love with him also adds to the theory. The fact she is Hopper’s adopted kid while Will doesn’t have a loving father also adds to it.

She is real in the sense everyone knows she is there and can see and interact with her. But I think she will cease to exist at the end of the show. Just like the upside down. They will fade away, one and the same, once Will takes control of the narrative and realizes his ability, just like Bastian does. Once Will accepts, she will fade away because he won’t need her to be his “warrior” anymore. And then I think there will be a time skip or epilogue scene where Will is older and away from Hawkins. Maybe reflecting on it. I see that being the conclusion.

It’s all just a theory, but it’s what makes the most sense to me tbh

[erikiara80]

Joyce, Hopper and Terry's message

I've already talked about the many Kali-Henry parallels, but there are other very interesting things. For example, like other people pointed out, Axel's mask is also at Melvald's (and the girl's mask is a tiger, hm)

Brain damaged. The only close up we get of the tattoo is in 2x01. Mike also mentions brain damage in S3, when he's worried about El. So, 2x01, the first time we see Kali, starts with a police chase, Brain Damaged tattoo and Kali creating an illusion that causes a car accident. What could it mean for El? If you follow my blog, you know my car crash theory. A car accident in the past that involved Hopper, maybe drowning, and then being revived? (Breath! She wasn't breathing)

A bald man even says to El: You're dead! We're all dead! (Ten in 4x01: Ellis and Six. Dead. They're both dead)

The only bald child in the show is Sarah. And she's dead. And the other scene where we see bald people (the prisoners) and kids are mentioned, is when Hopper yells at Dimitri that his son is not his son.

But this also seems connected to Joyce. In this scene we see Kali and El in front of a wrecked green car (there's also a green car in Terry's memory), the words mom and Janice (J, like Joyce), No. (number) and Ace.

Green car, mom J, police, El, car accident and Kali (Number One)

But speaking of Sarah. Dottie wears a clown mask. There are clowns on Sarah's pajamas, and Will was scared of clowns.

In 2x07 we see a flashback of what Kali does before the police chase in 2x01. I think it could be another hint at what happened in the past, maybe even what caused the car chase and the accident. Kali kills a man connected to the lab: one of the articles El reads in 2x05 is about the abduction of a newborn boy from a hospital by a nurse, who is later found dead from a gunshot wound in her house. Name of the journalist: Frank Williams

This extra, a blonde pregnant woman. El's mother? But the number on the bus is 4+2+2= 8 (or ten, if we count the other 2). Not eleven. Eight/Kali makes people see or not see whatever she chooses, so I wonder what is true and what not in Terry's memories.

The song that plays in this scene is Runaway

All your life all you asked is when's your daddy gonna talk to you. But you were living in another world, trying to get your message through

Then shot of the cops. This reminds me of Hopper seeing and hearing Sarah, but telling himself that it was all in his mind.

(end of the episode, when El sees her dad in the void, Mike says almost the same words. He too is trying to get a message through. I need to get through! I need to get through! I need to warn them. It's a trap!)

The cops are drinking coffee. Like coffee and contemplation (and donut). First thing Hopper says, when Flo tells him that Joyce can't find her son. And he has his coffee mug in S2, when he and Murray talk about the girl, the "russian spy".

In 2x05, at Terry's, before El enters the room, this is what they're saying on the TV:

Name a way you occupy your time when you're having a boring day at work. Drink coffee. "Drink coffee" said Mike. ... Yeah! Five answers will beat it, Lynn. [Lynn] Visit with other employees. [host] "Visit with other employees!" Terry: Rainbow.

Mike? Well, maybe not our Mike. I'm thinking about the many Michael Myers references, and Mikhail not being Dimitri's son.

Drinking coffee when you have a boring day at work -> coffee and contemplation. So, the first thing they do is connecting Terry and Hopper. And they do it in S1 too, when Becky says twice, with a smile, that Terry and Hopper would get along. They even have the same octagon table. Eight again...

The name Lynn. Like Vera Lynn? Her song, We'll meet again, plays after the sauna scene in S3, when we see the crowd of Flayed people. A song about Vera Lynn is in Pink Floyd album The Wall (Ross posted the photo of the poster a few weeks ago) which was released in 1979. I could be wrong, but...

Vera Lynn-> 1979, and Terry's first word, after Lynn says "visit with other employees", is rainbow

Could this be a hint that Terry wasn't just a subject of the experiments, but worked with Brenner? (employee) That she was Mama to Brenner's Papa?

Back to the coffee. Not only do they mention it on the TV, but then Terry shows El two coffee mugs, when she changes the channels, after a police chase (Kali calls Hopper policeman) But why would Terry show El police chases and coffee mugs? The other commercials seem about the lab. Terry is not just randomly changing the channels. She's talking. And for some reason, she's including Hopper in her message.

Blonde woman. Not sure if she stands for Terry or Virginia.

The score: 91, 64 -> 9+1, 6+4. Ten and ten. One and One. Or two. Lol, or eleven. I have to make a post about all the other things they show on that TV.

After the blonde woman, Terry shows El donuts. Many identical donuts and Was it worth the trip? Imo, a hint at the lab kids.

Then a Computer Supercenter. The Lab. MkUltra. I think Will's visual aid about Alan Turing hints at that too, not just at his queerness.

Then the police chase and the coffee mugs. But, like I said, if all this is about Terry and El's past, what does Hopper have to do with it?

Unless Terry is connecting El and Sarah. Maybe in S5 we're going to see Sarah's story in the lab, but I doubt it, or maybe Sarah and El were swapped at the hospital (after the car chase?) and that's why there are so many parallels between Hopper, Joyce and Terry?

Joyce and her coffee mug! But the coffee is drugged. Interesting.

Another big clue, imo. Ray was in Vietnam (here) And there's an extra who resembles Hopper in Terry's memory

It's just crazy how connected Joyce, Hopper and Terry are.

[willel]

That other anon is right, your theories contradict each other.

How is the UD a subsection of Dimension X/how did it change Will without maintaining the properties of Dimension X in such a way where everyone else who’s been in it would also be changed? Because we have no evidence that Will went to Dimension X at any point, not even in the VR game. We’ve only ever seen him in the UD, meaning he’d have to have gotten all that from the UD, meaning everyone else who’s been in there should have those changes too.

We know the stuff with Henry and Captain Brenner happened via direct exposure to Dimension X. In the play, Henry even says at one point about Dimension X “Can you get me back there?”, meaning that he’s been there and that it’s the source of his flaying (like Brimborn to the flayed). The play makes it sound like the flaying was accessory to the changes, unless we float the idea of Captain Brenner also having been flayed/him being the source of Brenner’s knowledge on the Shadow, which would make it impossible to distinguish which variable accounts for the blood type change.

So either Will, Henry, and Captain Brenner were all flayed and thus all changed by the Shadow, since that would be their common variable, or Will is not changed the way Henry and Captain Brenner were (specifically in terms of Dimension X exposure effects), making it a “Will 🤝 Henry: Flayed, Henry 🤝 Captain Brenner: Exposed to Dimension X” type situation in which all three experiences are unique.

But “Will was changed the same way Captain Brenner and Henry were: by direct exposure to Dimension X”, “The UD is a subsect of Dimension X, and based on the fact that we’re given no indication that Will went to Dimension X, he must have been changed by the UD”, and “No one else has been changed by exposure to the UD” can’t really coexist.

Before I read all this, I guess I should clarify my actual opinion. I realize I haven't exactly spoken about this stuff in quite a while, so people might think I'm speaking in absolutes when I have multiple different ideas about this kind of stuff.

This is how I view the Upside Down, as I described before (admittedly, a very long time ago)

There's the real world and then there's Dimension X. Completely separate.

To me, there's a few possibilities on where the Upside Down is.

It could be a bubble between the two spaces

It could be more overlapping into Dimension X, like a little sectioned off area of Dimension X (what I lean towards and what I was referring to in the other ask)

It could be that it overlaps perfectly on both worlds

So to clarify, I'm not saying the entirety of Dimension X is the Upside Down. But in at least two of these possibilities, the Upside Down is technically Dimension X or located inside of it.

With that out of the way, NOW I shall read the rest.

"how did it change Will without maintaining the properties of Dimension X in such a way where everyone else who’s been in it would also be changed?"

We don't know how or when it could've changed Will. Nearly his entire time in the Upside Down except for brief moments in time. Unlike everyone else we've ever seen prior to Vecna, Will was there for an entire week.

El was there for hours at most.

Joyce and Hopper were geared up for most of it, save a few hours as they were leaving the Upside Down with Will MAYBE

Hopper was the tunnels for at most a day maybe? I'd say a day yeah

The kids haven't been beyond the tunnels and that's not really the Upside Down + they were mostly masked up.

The teens were also there for hours at most both times.

So again, comparatively, Will was there much longer and we don't know what happened there majority of the time.

I think Dimension X and the Upside Down are functionally the same. Vines everywhere, all attached to the Mind Flayer. The only difference is location and appearance. So yes, I think if someone were trapped in the Upside Down for an extended amount of time, they too would be changed.

I don't think being flayed is the sole root cause. I think exposure counts, but how much? In Brenner's dad's case, I don't remember how long the ship disappeared. In the original Philadelphia Experiment conspiracy theory the Duffers are referencing, it was only a few moments.

In Henry's case, being flayed certainly seemed to be the root cause.

So comparing Will to these two situations, it definitely seems more similar to Brenner's dad, but I'm convinced there is something else that triggers it that we aren't aware of. Either way, I guess Will experienced both.

While I think it makes sense that he was changed the first time he ended up in the Upside Down (given he was having visions and sensing stuff before he was possessed in season 2), the argument can be made he didn't truly change until he ended up possessed for a bit.

Regardless of my rambling here, they made a point to show Will was not right when he returned from the Upside Down the first time.

(sorry if this is incoherent. I had a big life change recently and haven't gotten a lot of sleep. lol)

[cypherheartnokey]

What I mean when I say that Mike is heavily associated with opening doors. Whenever there's a door that needs to be opened and Mike is present... there's a 90% chance he is the one opening it, or at least trying to.

Mike is the key to Will's heart and to saving Hawkins...

[henrysglock]

This post is going to be rambling and speculative to say the least, but...You guys would tell me if certain types of gates had 2 ends in different times/locations (like a wormhole of some kind), right?

Like if, say, El opened the 1979 gate to Dimension X in Nevada, and that opened something to Dimension X in Hawkins in 1959, that might explain the supposed presence of monsters in TFS.

Then what about 1983? Could the 1983 gate in Hawkins have opened something in Nevada around 1953? Is that what's so special about Nevada in the 50s?

Was there a gate in Nevada in the early 50s?

(An aside, because I have to: Richard Brenner ran HNL from 1954 to 1971. Martin Brenner seems to have been there since 1959, and was in charge by 1983. Just...shrimpresting to me. Martin Brenner...you aren't a nepo baby by any chance, are you? Asking for a friend.)

And with that...you guys would tell me if Dimension X existed outside of space-time, right.

Like okay, running with the 1979-1959/1983-1953 Hawkins-Nevada theory. Henry didn't shape the Shadow until post-1979, but we do see him drawing it, fully-formed, in 1959.

If Dimension X exists, theoretically, outside space-time...then could it be possible that a young, pre-1959 Henry met post-banishment Henry via a gate in Nevada in 1953-1954?

[cocks gun] Hey Henry, in an attempt to change your fate/escape HNL ("Something that would change everything"), did you retroactively give yourself the Shadow?

Which, if it's retroactive, might explain why ST1 Jopper et. al. don't immediately connect TFS to ST1. TFS Henry may or may not be flayed, but that may not have gone into effect until 1983-1984. Thus the adults don't connect it, because it technically hasn't happened yet...or to this version of them specifically.

See: Stranger Things Day Discrepancy #1

If this all ^^ is the case, but Henry doesn't ultimately change his fate, then instead of finding the Shadow post-1979, Henry would reunited with it.

He's been known it for over 25 years. He's been flayed, and it sounds like it likely wasn't a pleasant experience, given the way VR Henry reacts to the Shadow as compared to Canon Henry:

Canon Henry reaches out to the amorphous Shadow and shapes it. VR Henry rejects it immediately. VR Henry wants the Shadow to go away. Canon Henry beckons the Shadow and shapes it.

(If there was a Henry who already had control of the Shadow, it might also answer the question of who the hell is manipulating it in the VR trailer...but again, it's speculative.)

This all might also answer a long-standing question of mine: How the hell did Will know that closing the gate would work?

Will gets flayed in 1984, and he's only flayed for a few days. In fact, he's really only possessed for about a day...and supposedly, no one has ever seen anything like this before, so it's not like anyone suggested it to him.

This means Will figured out how to cut the connection with the Mindflayer in less than a day, while under extreme duress.

Which sure, you could hand-wave it as hive mind stuff...but what if there was someone who already knew how to cut the connection? Say...someone who may not have been the primary target anymore? [Smash-cut to 4.06 Brenner: "Well, well, it looks like we have a new winner"]

Tangentially, it's so interesting to me that Will would have morse code memorized so well that he can use it under such insane duress, something that only Hopper, who's father was a WW2 vet and who was once military himself, recognizes in ST2. Will doesn't show any proclivity towards morse code until this point, though. He could have used morse in ST1 to talk to Joyce/Hopper in full words via the lights, if he knows it this well! But he doesn't.

That leads me to ask—Who do we know that:

is heavily associated with the Shadow/Dimension X

may been possessed/flayed in the past

may have experience neutralizing the Shadow

had a father who was in WW2

is around Hopper's age/is of an age where knowing morse code would be common

(The answer should be glaring, let me know if it's not)

What more did El have to learn about Henry via NINA? What was the truth Brenner meant for her to see/was withholding from her? Why does it feel like certain characters have been scapegoated, and that we may have had a man on the inside (or rather...the other side) this whole time?

Tangentially related speculation re: Will, the lights, and Henry under the cut

It makes me wonder, again, about Stranger Things Day Discrepancy #2:

If Will's messages don't count, then why does this set of messages count? Is Will even in the real Upside Down at all?

See: Stranger Things Day Discrepancy #3 and #4

(I know at least my group of friends has been thinking that Will's UD isn't the same as Nancy's or Vecna's since...forever)

And if Will isn't in the UD, then who is? Who's blinking the letter-lights, and why is that considered the first message from the Upside Down?

Why is TFS, a story about Henry, considered "the origin of the Upside Down"...

and not ST1 Mothergate/Will's disappearance?

Who made the letter-lights blink quickly, rather than the slow, glowy way Will does it with the white lights? (See also: The slow glow when the other kids touch lights in the UD/the LiteBrite)

Which program has been shown having kids with powers quickly blink lights on and off with their minds?

So again...why does it feel like we've got a man on the inside?

[munsons-maiden]

𝐏𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐞𝐥𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐭𝐰𝐞𝐞𝐧 𝐄𝐝𝐝𝐢𝐞, 𝐌𝐚𝐱 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐖𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐲 𝐦𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐭𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐮𝐬 𝐚𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐒𝐓𝟓

This post is a summary of several other asks I answered, mainly this one and this one.

Let’s bear in mind what the Duffers themselves once said and already proved: they love parallels, and they love foreshadowing. Okay, here we go.

▹ 𝐏𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐞𝐥𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐭𝐰𝐞𝐞𝐧 𝐄𝐝𝐝𝐢𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐖𝐢𝐥𝐥

There are a some tiny but seemingly significant parallels between Eddie and Will which are summarized here:

They’re both referred to/refer to themselves as Freak

While pinning Eddie’s “missing” poster up, Wayne Munson is wearing the exact same jacket as Jonathan did when he was pinning up Will’s “missing” poster

both are strongly connected to Lights: Will is the first one in ST to communicate via the lights in ST1, and since that moment lights have been a way to say “I’m here” when manipulated by the heroes of the story. Eddie is associated with lights, too - he’s the one who thinks of wrapping the flashlight up for Steve so Steve won’t go blind into the darkness of Lover’s Lake; and Eddie is the one who then keeps said flashlight, keeping it when the four of them later ride the bikes back to the trailer park in the Upside Down. In this scene, Eddie is the only one with a light. This might foreshadow his connection to the Upside Down and possible insights he will get to it and to Henry (see my theory on how Eddie will return in ST5)

The most important parallel between them, though, is the music. Here’s why:

When Will dies in the Upside Down at the end of season 1, he is dead for a few moments until Hopper resuscitates him (-> “resurrects him”). During the scene of Will dying and then being resuscitated, the song “When it’s cold I’d like to die” plays.

The same song is playing when Eddie dies in the Upside Down.

The song has only been used in these two scenes - no other scene or death scene. Only these two.

Plus, this song is the only one on the soundtracks which hadn’t been released at the times these two scenes take place (it was released in 1995, and the scenes take place in 1983 and 1986).

Another instance proving that the Duffers’ choice of song during pivotal scenes isn’t coincidence but intentionally used for foreshadowing is the example of “Heroes”: Heroes is played exactly two times in the series: when Will’s “body” is found in the lake in season 1, and when El reads Hopper’s letter in season 3. Both Hopper and Will have been thought to be dead by the characters and us, the audience, at the time Heroes was playing - and both characters turned out to be alive. And furthermore - both were never dead during the respective scene. Will hadn’t died in the UD yet when the fake body was found, he was alive and hiding. And Hopper didn’t die when the gate closed; he was alive and hidden. “Heroes” foreshadowed that a character who’s been pronounced dead was still alive. Tiny little details like these make me absolutely certain that this is not a coincidence but carefully crafted foreshadowing.

▹ 𝐏𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐞𝐥𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐭𝐰𝐞𝐞𝐧 𝐄𝐝𝐝𝐢𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐌𝐚𝐱

The same song (”When it’s cold I’d like to die”) plays during Max’s death, who dies at the exact same time as Eddie.

Max is dead for a few moments (just like Will) and gets resurrected (just like Will); by El, who possesses the same powers as Vecna does.

Which leads me to believe that while Max gets resurrected by El, our story’s heroine, Eddie will be resurrected by Vecna, our story’s villain (and flayed, just like Will was who’s paralleled with Eddie, and just like Billy was; meaning Eddie can be saved and will stay alive). Their resurrections will mirror each other.

Another parallel between Max and Eddie (though I’m not sure about whether it only foreshadowed their simultaneous deaths or whether it’s meant to foreshadow their resurrections as well) is the Michael Myers mask that belongs to Max, and is later worn by Eddie in episode 8. We know Michael Myers can’t be killed/won’t stay dead - that is now true for Max. And I’m certain it will be true for Eddie as well.

[ladyfromaspookyforest]

Talkin' about Russia 'cause Nobody Wants To

So...why the railroad?

Forced labor was extremely common in Soviet prisons. Their railroad system at the time of the 80s was one of the most utilized in the world. That Hopper's prison would be working on a railroad is not unrealistic in the slightest. But why is this prison (a secret prison, mind you) working on a railroad? Why is there a railroad located right by a secret prison? A secret prison devoted to secret research related to a secret dimension?

Well.

Where'd all this shit come from? How are they transporting all of the demogorgons here? How did they acquire them to begin with? Where did they acquire them?

And where the fuck is this?

This is from the first scene of season 3, when Alexei and co are trying to open the gate in Russia. We see his superiors go outside and then a shot of the Russian flag, but there's no location cue popping up on screen to let us know where specifically this is in Russia. Alexei tells us later that they moved the operation to Hawkins because the gate had already been opened and the barrier was therefore weaker.

So what happened to the lab in Russia? What else is going on at this huge base? Why is the research in Russia with the demogorgons and the particles now taking place at a secret prison in Kamchatka?

Kamchatka is a peninsula, FYI. Not a town.

So it's completely possible that the wumbo base featured in the season 3 premier is, in fact, also in Kamchatka. Or, if not, is at least reachable by rail.

I feel like it's safe to assume that something is still happening at that base. Because you cannot possibly convince me that they relocated from aforementioned base here:

Not a chance. As a relocation, this makes no sense at all. As a second operation, however, absolutely. We know that one of the reasons the demogorgons are at the prison is to keep them fed and (in Hopper's words) "entertained." We also see them being studied.

That means the location at the prison is convenient to provide fodder/dinner while the scientists study the creatures. But the Russians never got the gate in Hawkins all the way open, so they can't have taken the demogorgons from there. We also don't know how the Russians found out about the UD in the first place, motivating them to seek to open a gate.

This is the machine in Suzie, Do You Copy? It malfunctioned and damaged all the equipment in the room, including itself. The likelihood of the Russians dismantling the machine, transporting the parts to Indiana, and rebuilding the machine with those same damaged parts seems slim. So perhaps while Alexei's team was rebuilding a new machine in Hawkins, another team was repairing this one here. Because we still have a crack in the world.

Not a gate, but a crack is there. Season 3 takes place a year after this. Season 4 takes place eight months after that. After the machine at Starcourt was destroyed, you cannot convince me they gave up. If they had been working on BOTH machines in the year before the "mall fire," and then spent another eight months after that on this one, it is completely possible they managed to open it enough to get a demogorgon or particles through.

Here's a theory I'm just chucking out there. What if the Russian gate doesn't lead to the Upside Down?

What if it leads to Dimension X? Why give them the same color scheme? And show us explicitly that there are demodogs in Dimension X?

Another question: who is them?

It's implied that the answer is the demogorgons. But this is never outright stated. The prison officer dies before he's able to answer the question (typical) and then they look at the cameras and go "oh them of course!" But what if it wasn't the demogorgons? Or what if it was but killing them didn't kill the particles? Could there be Flayed in Russia? Are the particles even from the same place as the demogorgons?

If the demogorgons are from the Russian gate and the particles are from the Hawkins gate, the particles entering the demogorgons would connect them to the UD hive mind where before they would not have been, therefore allowing Murray's flamethrower extravaganza to affect Vecna, the demobats, and the vines in the UD Creel House. Maybe the particles were essential in order to allow this success while still allowing the demogorgons to be from another dimension and therefore a separate hive mind.

And MAYBE I'm full of shit. But I find the coloring of Dimension X and the demotanks extremely suspicious.

[0aurelion-sol0]

The heck ?!

What is happening in that comic ?! Why are all these people flayed ?! It looks just like the black veins Billy and Will had when they were possessed...

What the hell is happening back in Russia ? Why are there flayed people just walking around there ? I'm confused...